Sunday, August 12, 2007

So I am going to make some uncomfortable with this one....

OK, I cannot resist it anymore. Today in preaching we learned about not being afraid to offend, so here goes.
This morning, Jeff was the speaker. He had us get up from where we were seated, and move all over the room, based on month of birth. We ended up all over the place, in mixed groups. We then had to meet people we didn't know. We had to tell them something we've been struggling with, and also someone we wanted them to pray for. Uncomfortable, you think?

At least we have the RIGHT to be uncomfortable. And no one will flog us for it.

Brandy Files made it clear a long time ago when she and TJ began their journey as foster parents that following God's plan isn't always pain free. Well, that's a strange comparison, to compare "giving a child back" to "speaking to strangers about Jesus" but I know most of us have a hard time with the second choice there.

So now I will touch on something that bothers me, that I haven't addressed, other than to Misty. I get jokes (and serious remarks sometimes) about my church (which is the PEOPLE, not the building behind BP) being like a cult. It's hard to not be rude when I hear these labels put on us, because unless you visit, you can't understand.
Unless you see our children absorbing the Word from Tanya like little sponges, you can't understand. Unless you see Kami & Kynlee learning to nurture from their mother, you can't understand. Unless you have witnessed the spiritual growth between our walls, you can't understand. Or judge.
We worship the same God you do.
We do it with non traditional songs. We clap at times, and even SWAY to the music. And we do it with happy hearts, smiling at each other, and at TJ and Ronny as they lead us in our worship through song.
We do it in jeans and tshirts, with other people's babies on our hip, loving them like our own. It's not abnormal to me.
I can honestly say I love every one of Brandy and TJ's FOUR kids. I fell for Ms. Karis right away. It's not avoidable. You WILL love that child if you meet her. You can't help it. The same with the others, and the same with all the little ones. It's just extended family. Who can question that?
I did some research on cults today. Jim Jones. David Koresh. The whole nine yards.
Below is what I found. It isn't what you find within the doors of our building, or our homes, or our HEARTS.

"A cult is a group or movement exhibiting a great or excessive devotion or dedication to some person, idea, or thing and employing unethically manipulative techniques of persuasion and control (e.g., isolation from former friends and family, debilitation, use of special methods to heighten suggestibility and subservience, powerful group pressures, information management, suspension of individuality or critical judgment, promotion of total dependency on the group and fear of leaving it, etc.) designed to advance the goals of the group’s leaders to the actual or possible detriment of members, their families, or the community." (West & Langone, 1986)
What Are Some Characteristics of a Cult?
Authoritarian in their power structure
Totalitarian in their control of the behavior of their members
Pyramidal structure
Uses thought reform techniques (huh?)
Isolation of members (physical and/or psychological isolation) from society
Uses deception in recruiting and/or fund raising (never)
Promotes dependence of the members on the group (promotes FAMILY)
Totalitarian in their world view
Uses mind altering techniques (chanting, meditation, hypnosis and various forms of repetitive actions) to stop normal critical thinking (ummm, we clap, does that count?)
Appear exclusive and innovative
Charismatic or messianic leader who is self-appointed and has a special mission in life
Controls the flow of information (we have a hard time keeping the announcements straight)
Instills a fear of leaving the group (you have SEEN Jeff, right? He isn't scary)


(1) Cult members are “focused on a living leader to whom members seem to display excessively zealous, unquestioning commitment.” The leader is a strong-willed, domineering character who rules the group with tight control. He lets it be known in subtle ways that he is “in charge” of the movement. He makes the plans, he orchestrates the movements of the group or groups (sometimes he exercises his sway over several groups). He dispatches the workers, assigns their chores, etc. (This is NOT the way of Journey Church. We are NOT focused on a living leader. Jeff and Ryan are treated respectfully as prayer led pastors, and that is IT. Neither are domineering in any way. And if you know Jeff, he is game for anything, but he IS NOT the planner...)

(2) “Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged,” and there can be pressure or social punishment when there is disagreement with the “boss.” Those who disagree are made to feel as though they are stupid or inept. They are brainwashed with the notion that they do not have the knowledge or experience to question the leader. (Once again, not the way of Journey. We are encouraged to question EVERYTHING, which is exactly what we will be getting into at small groups, beginning very soon. People who disagree are not discouraged at all.)

(3) The leader “is preoccupied with [raising] money.” There is always a need for increasing finances. New projects are ever in the planning. Members are strongly encouraged to greatly sacrifice for the leader’s current “pet” enterprise. There is little pressure let-up; members of the group must be kept “revved up” on a continual basis. (We are encouraged to raise money for missions, local projects, and anything we see relevant to help spread the story of Jesus Christ and to help others reach their personal salvation. No one tells us how to do that. There's an open floor for new mission ideas. Just see Jennifer.)

(4) The cult leader generates within his members “a polarized” mentality. His people evolve an “us-versus-them” mentality. Little-by-little he criticizes other groups with which his members might tend to associate, undermining confidence in them, attempting to discredit anyone who could have influence over his “flock.” (Our members are encouraged to go out and witness to others within the community WITHOUT trying to make them switch churches. If Journey works for you, great, if you are happy where you are, that's great too. We aren't looking for the highest numbers in enrollment.)

(5) The cult leader has a clearly defined “anti-authoritarian” disposition. Within the context of the church, for instance, he would have an “anti-elder” attitude. Elders would be recipients of constant critical remarks. No cult leader would affiliate himself with a congregation having elders to whom he must be in submission. “Control” could not be maintained in such an environment. (We have elders. Period.)

(6) Cult members are seen occasionally to take on a new personality. They begin to act differently. They become increasingly antagonistic to family members and long-time friends. They may even boast that, “I am not the old [name] that you used to know; I am a new person now.” And indeed they are. They have become strangers to those who knew them well. They have been transformed into the image of their leader. (If becoming a new Christian and changing your ways makes you a cult, then by all means, call me a member of a cult. I don't care.)

15 comments:

Anonymous,  August 12, 2007 at 5:35:00 PM CDT  

i read this daily. sometimes i feel like a web stalker. i think you summed this up very well and i know there are many that will come away with a new understanding of journey churches ideas and ways of praise. i admit i haven't yet stepped out beyond the typical baptist church yet, but i am on the edge. i feel spiritually down at this point, and i think maybe, just maybe, your place of worship might be the spot for me. do the small groups happn on wed. nites?

thanks,
tim

Anonymous,  August 12, 2007 at 5:42:00 PM CDT  

Wow! Journey is a cult! I guess us all going on camping trips together as friends might qualify as a cult. But if we are a cult, why do we have open doors that anyone can come to us.

Cults can't questions. That would be hard for me to attend. If I don't understand or agree, I will ask. That is what Journey is about. Ask and you shall find. In all reality, our questions are not always directed toward Jeff or Ryan for an answer. How many times have you gone to Doug, Brandy, Wade, Rene, etc. for advice or understanding of the word. WE ARE A FAMILY AND THAT IS IT!

Love the blog entry. Great research!

Anonymous,  August 12, 2007 at 5:45:00 PM CDT  

I would enjoy more information on the small group meetings as well.

I attend FBC and although I am not looking for a new church home, I think you all's set up sounds wonderfully family oriented and as though you are all on the same 'journey' we are!

Anonymous,  August 12, 2007 at 5:48:00 PM CDT  

PTL for outside the box thinkers.
Much love,
Markaysha Deshazer

K.T. is Mommatude August 12, 2007 at 6:02:00 PM CDT  

There is much hesitation on posting the following,alot of people associate me with Journey,and I almost dont even want to step out and do this because the people that I have gotten to know at Journey,I care for so dearly......


I have actually heard this sentiment voiced as well,frequently.....
But if I can recall the first most common reasoning-it was not because of what was going on inside the church but outside of it.Meaning,there seems,apparently, to the general population, to be a large group of members of Journey, who are not completely open to new people and only associate with those that attend the church,daily.

I myself,although I dont hang out with anyone daily,cannot express that same sentiment,after all, Joyful Chaos stepped out and talked to me a little over a year ago.......She is wonderful and I care for her and her family dearly!!!

Shelley August 12, 2007 at 6:07:00 PM CDT  

I will post more on small groups as soon as I know the exact schedule. It won't be long, and we would be glad to have anyone that wants to check it out!

I honestly don't know how more open to new people we could possibly be; I mean, we started coming based on me meeting Jeff via Monticello Live.com so I can't see where people would get that idea. All these people I mentioned were strangers to me when we joined, and they certainly aren't now. We have walked around in walmart inviting people and etc, and I can honestly say, other than a co-worker inviting me to bring my kids to her church to Awana, me and my family have never been formally asked to visit any other church besides this one, in the entire time I have lived in Monticello.

I hate knowing people feel this way :(

Ryan Morgan August 12, 2007 at 6:14:00 PM CDT  

Our small groups are held in different members homes on Wed. nights. This fall we are going to have questions that will guide us into a deeper understanding of what is preached the previous Sunday. We are going to have a "Facing the Giants" theme this fall in which Jeff and I will be preaching on different characters throughout scripture that showed great faith while "Facing a Giant" in their life. The set up for small groups is very laid back. We normally eat or have snack food together, there is always a time of fellowship, and the atmosphere is open where people are encouraged to grow. The groups consist of about 4-6 couples or 10-12 adults. While the adults meet in the homes, our children meet at the church. We provide child care for 2nd grade and below at a very low cost and also have a children's ministry called UPPER L for 3rd - 5th graders. This past spring we had a theme of "Fear Factor" for the UPPER L. It was great and the kids were challenged to show no fear when it comes to Christianity and life. Our youth are challenged to help lead the UPPER L kids. In a nutshell, that is it for Small Groups.

Shelley...great post and great information about cults. I appreciate your heart and am encouraged by the growth that God is creating in your's and Mike's life. Continue to seek Jesus through scripture and live, love, and learn. maGod bless!

Anonymous,  August 12, 2007 at 6:15:00 PM CDT  

I think hesitancy to visit Journey comes party in knowing that it isn't a quiet, sit down and listen place, by reputation. You all engage with activities like the one you had this AM and for some, it would be a turnoff. Personally, I believe we could all grow a bit in our relationship to the Lord if we got a little less comfortable and stepped outside the box. I enjoy reading Mr Nobels blog very much, although it is often above my head. I have read several books based on his reviews of them.


May God bless you and yours,
J. Bailey
Warren, Ark. Go Jacks!

Anonymous,  August 12, 2007 at 7:28:00 PM CDT  

I feel two inches tall. I have made less than desirable remarks about your group.
How wrong we are when we judges the houses of worship of others.
You are opening eyes wide in Monticello with these posts, as I am sure you are aware. Continue with your intense research, and setting people like myself straight. I don't know why we are against things we know nothing of.
my apologies, from the heart,
W.F.

Anonymous,  August 12, 2007 at 7:30:00 PM CDT  

Mr. Files is my teacher. He is the coolest. I know if he goes there it can't be weird.

Anonymous,  August 12, 2007 at 7:53:00 PM CDT  

well, here I am posting a comment qhile I wait for my FAM at the airport. I don't guess I had any idea that this was even an issue. My naivete, for sure. The interesting thing is that Ryan and I both have seminary degrees from the world's largest seminary - a Southern Baptist one in Ft. Worth. We earnestly seek to cooperate with all Christ-centered churches and ministries.

I really appreciate your entry. It seems to have hit the nail on the head for many.

Rosjuane August 12, 2007 at 11:10:00 PM CDT  

Okay so I'm not a member or even a guest at this church (meaning I've never attended anything involving this church) so I can't say what goes on within their groups. BUT I'm a close friend of Shelley we talk everyday 200xs a day. And I can testify that this is a very carring group. Those of you who read this blog regulary know that my family has been through alot with my son, and Shelley has asked EVERYONE to pray for him. The church has been a big part in this. I have made new friends such as K.T. (who can seem harsh, but only b/c she's had soo much to deal with especially with people judging with out knowing) Lou who has put energy into helping people b/c she's needed help and knows how to pay it forward NOT back, Michael who really does do "DIRT CHEAP COMPUTER REPAIRS" when his finaces aren't that great even when he could be charging wayyyy more. Those are just the ones that I have come in contact with, but I feel emotionally connected to soooo many more. They have prayed for my son and know my family by name even though they have never met us. I know things about some of the others struggles and I pray for them as well. I live in Mc Gehee and if gas wasn't so high I would join right in on all the FUN!! I feel a part of this chuch and don't even attend. I read their blogs and enjoy them. I don't attend a church right now b/c I'm very hard to be convinced of a churches motive. So many churches now are about appearance. So many members are hypocrites. I haven't given any here in Mc Gehee a chance yet, but I do like what I know about Journey. I'm currently a member of a church in New Edinburg and am still very close to the pastor that was (at the time) there. I call him when I really need guidence and he is always there. I am thinking of talking to Jeff or Ryan and seeing if I can form a bond with them in the same way. I feel confident that I will. I guess I've been testing the waters and I'm going to be taking the first step soon. So I challange others to do the same I seriously don't think you will regret it. Thats just a LARGE opinion from a true "outsider".

Sugar-n-Spice August 13, 2007 at 8:52:00 AM CDT  

wow, shelley...where have i been? really great post, and great comments. you keep doing what you do, shelley. ask questions, share what you know, stir things up, gal! :) i love it!

the way you referred to me and my family just floors me. and kinda scares me, too. you know, we goof up ALL the time. :) i often don't feel worthy of what you and others have said. and i pray that everyone can see that anything we do, isn't us at all. i can't count the times that i've said, "god, i can't do this." to which he responds, "you don't have to. i'm doing what you can't do."

Anonymous,  August 13, 2007 at 11:49:00 AM CDT  

wow, shelley!

i read your post and SO wanted to post the comment my hubby and i always joked about. but your comments have been so heartfelt. i'm amazed at the outpouring and the people you're touching. keep at it!

(for those of you who know us - matt and i also encountered these things while at journey. and we always told folks to bring their own snakes when they came to visit! ;) )

Unknown August 13, 2007 at 6:04:00 PM CDT  

How are we going to be free from the past? The response of the past is involuntary, it is not summoned or invited, it is upon us before we know it. Do you think our brain structure has been altered with conditioning, and we ourselves have become our own worst enemy? Revolution can only come about when the "I" is not conscious of making an effort to change.

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